Yale Global Initiative on Climate Change and Public Health Ethics: "Climate Change and Public Health Ethics: Our Duty to Displaced Global Populations"

March 31, 2022

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Dr. Laura Bothwell joined the Center on Climate Change and Health to discuss her work with displaced global populations.

February 21, 2022

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00:00<v ->Economic expansion. All sorts of areas</v>
00:04of human consumption and travel
00:07and resource use increasing very significantly.
00:12And this has had a significant effect
00:15on greenhouse gas emissions,
00:17particularly over the past 70 years.
00:20So I like this chart
00:22which shows global primary energy consumption since 1800.
00:28And you can see historically humans
00:30typically relied on traditional biogas, wood, cow dung,
00:34resources directly available for energy production
00:38and we've had this shift over the past century plus toward
00:43particularly fossil fuels.
00:46But what I think is interesting is that even as
00:49we've had rapid developments of technologies for green
00:54and sustainable energy use,
00:56we haven't seen the shift in our actual consumption relying
01:01on those as primary sources of energy.
01:03We're still very dependent on the early sources of energy
01:07from the industrial revolution with coal, oil, and then
01:12we've had the more recent development of natural gas.
01:16But we can see that we have a long way to go
01:18in terms of shifting toward energy that will be sustainable.
01:25So thinking about the scenario that has resulted
01:30from greenhouse gas consumption,
01:33climate change is contributing to desertification,
01:37sea level rise, resource scarcity, and increased frequency
01:41of extreme weather events particularly
01:43in low latitude areas forcing people from their homes.
01:47In 2020, weather related hazards such as storms
01:51and floods triggered 30.1 million displacement worldwide.
01:57The sea level is rising 12 millimeters a year
02:00in the western Pacific
02:01and has already submerged eight islands.
02:04By 2100 is estimated that 48 islands will be lost
02:08to the rising ocean.
02:10Countries such as Tuvalu, Kiribati and the Marshall Islands
02:13already experience ocean flooding that washes salt water
02:16onto agricultural lands
02:18and inundates drinking water sources.
02:20So it's quite likely that some islands
02:23will lose fresh water long before land is lost.
02:28Vulnerable communities are experiencing forced migration
02:32already throughout the world.
02:34So Pacific islands
02:35are having coastal erosion forcing residents
02:38to leave displacement in Asian countries is occurring
02:41due to severe storms.
02:44Climate impacts on rural livelihoods
02:46are forcing central agents to migrate
02:49to urban areas for survival.
02:51Less African coastal fishing villages are leaving
02:54due to the depletion of fish resources caused
02:57by ocean acidification as you see in this image here.
03:02Latin American droughts are forcing both internal
03:05and international migration.
03:09And the future of climate migration is looking
03:14to expand significantly.
03:15So the world bank estimates that three regions,
03:19Latin America, sub-Saharan Africa and Southeast Asia
03:22will generate 143 million more climate migrants
03:26by the year 2050.
03:30This is a map
03:31from the International Organization for Migration.
03:35They have regional maps for all of the major regions
03:38of the world that are experiencing climate related migration
03:43as a result of climate change.
03:45So I'd like to highlight on this map
03:47a couple of the key causes.
03:50So you have some climate change hotspots
03:54and you have risk of desertification,
03:58lower precipitation in some areas leading to floods
04:02that are preventing reliable growing of crops
04:07as populations have in the past relied upon.
04:10We also have some areas with less precipitation,
04:15again, impacting food production.
04:19We have negative agricultural changes, ecosystem changes,
04:23reduced water availability, depletion of fisheries,
04:28melting of glaciers which is leading to sedimentation
04:32and affecting again, water and crop supplies,
04:35there's impacts on mountain regions, coral bleaching,
04:39and of course sea level rise concerns.
04:41So I think this is a nice way just in one region to see
04:46the numerous ways in which climate change
04:49is affecting migration patterns and disrupting pre-existing
04:55reliable structures of assessments.
04:59We've also seen a trend historically documented
05:02in the scientific literature and increasingly
05:05in the defense department regarding the real human toll
05:11of disrupting reliable sources of water and of the impact
05:17of drought on leading to higher likelihood of conflict
05:22and conflict ultimately leading
05:25to migration changes as well.
05:28So we have the sort of natural effects that are occurring
05:34with humans having limited resources.
05:38But then of course there's a psychological
05:40and social dynamics that complicate and multiply
05:45the existing natural dynamics as individuals
05:49are competing for scarce resources,
05:52which historically has never led to a positive outcome.
05:56So how can we think about all of this ethically?
06:00I think what is really challenging on topics such as this,
06:03that involve marginalized global populations
06:06that tend to be invisible in society such as ours
06:10in our typical power structures,
06:13we need to try to think very objectively in ethics.
06:17So there are a set of ways of doing this
06:22that emphasis been put forth that I think are essential
06:25as we can try to bypass biases and prejudices
06:30and our failure to recognize
06:31the innate human rights inequality of all individuals.
06:35So first being reasonable not doctrinaire,
06:38listening actively to the voices,
06:40particularly the voices of those who don't have
06:44a powerful position in the world community,
06:49letting the best reasons determine judgments
06:51versus economics politics or other competing interests,
06:56remaining common optimistic in the face of controversy,
07:00but at the same time,
07:01being realistic about the situations and choices
07:04that we face and understanding that we don't necessarily
07:08have silver bullets here.
07:09And this is a problem that is going to require some level
07:12of active engagement in serious work.
07:17And also considering critically the approaches
07:20of different cultures,
07:21understanding that solutions to our existing climate crisis,
07:27ideally should be coming out of an open
07:31and sincere engagement with different cultural,
07:35ethical responses and implications
07:38of those ethical responses.
07:40Because we have a certain environment
07:43in which the industrialized nations are operating
07:47under social and cultural assumptions of how
07:52we should engage with the planet and the economic system
07:56in which we engage with the planet.
07:58And there are certainly other approaches from other cultures
08:01that are much more sustainable
08:03and from an ethical perspective,
08:04we have an obligation to be open and to consider the variety
08:10of approaches that could potentially lead
08:12to a more sustainable and effective and fair future
08:16for all populations around the planet.
08:20So there are some key ethical principles primary
08:23to climate change and health.
08:26Number one, scientific integrity.
08:28And this is the concept of honesty and truth telling.
08:32And I think this is a critical point to emphasize
08:35because oftentimes particularly in climate discussions,
08:40there is misinformation a whole host
08:44of industries promoting alternative pseudoscience.
08:51But we also have a tendency to avoid the gravity
08:55of the problem and to try to not deal with it
09:01because of the severity of the challenges
09:05that humanity faces.
09:06So there's an ethical value of telling the truth
09:11and being explicit about the reality that we are facing
09:16and to ensure that what we are sharing is unbiased
09:19and reflecting, not the cultural objectives
09:23of one specific environment,
09:25but the actual scientific scenario that the entire world
09:29is facing right now.
09:31The next core principle that I think is crucial here
09:34and that has been typically put forth in the literature
09:37on climate change and public health ethics
09:39is the concept of justice.
09:41And this is that public health professionals
09:43should highlight differences
09:45that affect health status unfairly,
09:48and that we should emphasize basic human rights
09:50and define activities and legal conditions to ensure
09:54the achievement of basic right and a decent life
09:57for all people regardless of their location of birth.
10:03And the third principle is the concept ethically of welfare.
10:07And this is the principle
10:08that every person's happiness counts,
10:11regardless of their location.
10:14All individuals around the world have an equal human right
10:19for their happiness to be considered.
10:24So the challenge of climate migration ethics is that,
10:29many of the migrating populations most affected
10:31by rising sea levels, drought and extreme heat
10:36are also populations that have
10:38had smaller carbon footprints.
10:40So this is a real justice question.
10:45Looking at our own population here in the United States,
10:49US populations have not been severely displaced
10:52by rising sea levels, drought and heat.
10:55We've had over a million individuals in the past affected
11:00by these issues, but we've also had substantial resources
11:05and abilities to respond to this challenge.
11:09But looking at a global sage,
11:11we are not the populations that are experiencing the effects
11:16of greenhouse gas consumption at the levels that others are
11:20with regard to displacement on account of rising sea level,
11:24drought, heat, and other anomalous weather disasters.
11:29However, we've contributed much more carbon per capita
11:33than most of the populations that are now having to relocate
11:37due in part to the climate effects of US carbon consumption.
11:41And so this is a nice map looking at 2020
11:44internally displaced populations
11:47from the Internal Displacement Monitoring Center.
11:51And so you can see that this is a problem that we feel,
11:54but again, given the economic capacities
11:57that we have to rebound from climate anomalies,
12:01we're not feeling the effects as severely as individuals
12:06with less resources available to them.
12:09But also we're simply not feeling looking at the map,
12:13the effects as severely as some parts of the world.
12:17So it's a real problem of creating a problem without feeling
12:22and seeing the consequences of our actions directly
12:25in our day to day lives the extent that other individual
12:29on the planet Earth.
12:32So thinking about the ethical value of scientific integrity,
12:36700 million people are in the most vulnerable countries
12:39to climate change, including Afghanistan, Bangladesh,
12:42Barbados, Bhutan, Costa Rica, Ethiopia, Ghana, Kenya,
12:47Kiribati, Madagascar, the Maldives, Nepal, the Philippines,
12:51Rwanda, Saint Lucia, Tanzania, Timor-Leste, Tuvalu,
12:56Vanuatu and Vietnam.
12:58While these countries are most at risk,
13:01they are among the lowest contributors of greenhouse gases
13:04that are primarily responsible
13:06for human cause climate change.
13:10So it's not just an ethical challenge, it's almost an irony,
13:13almost an ethical irony.
13:15But the individuals who are hardest hit by the effects
13:18of climate change are also those who are contributing least
13:23to the problem.
13:25These countries are also burdened with the double stress
13:29as they work to tackle
13:30internal climate related hazards, including displacement.
13:35They also serve as receiving countries
13:37to growing numbers of refugees.
13:43So again, thinking about the ethical value
13:45of scientific integrity as a way to frame our conversation
13:49and have an accurate understanding of the data upon
13:53which we can build an ethical argument
13:56for what should be done,
13:58the top three resource of greenhouse gas emissions
14:01are China, the United States and the European Union.
14:05And you can see in this chart,
14:08we're looking at tons per person of carbon consumption.
14:14And so the United States
14:16has on the highest per capita greenhouse gas emissions.
14:22And we also need to think about what is being covered
14:27in these types of measurements.
14:31Because this is looking at per capita consumption
14:35and we have typical dependence in the US on industries
14:42that are recorded typically in per capita consumption
14:45in the development of products, say in China
14:48that are then shipped to the United States for consumption.
14:53So we're also needing to be aware of the ways
14:56that other parts of the world are producing emissions
15:00in part to reflect our demand for consumption.
15:05So thinking about climate change ethics at a global scale,
15:10nations that contributed leads to climate change
15:13will be suffering the worst consequences.
15:16So this is a map that is adjusted on the top for billions
15:22of tons of carbon produced and the nations
15:27are inflated to show carbon production.
15:31And then on the bottom we're looking at
15:33the mortality per million in the population
15:36as a result of the effects of climate change.
15:39And you can see that particularly for sub-Saharan Africa,
15:45these are pretty severely disproportionate,
15:48so that they're facing the consequences of pre-assumption,
15:53that we are not facing the consequences of
15:56while at the same time,
15:58they're not causing the problem that they are dealing with.
16:03Similarly, you see this happening in South Asia.
16:07And if we are looking at the areas of the world
16:12that are going to be particularly vulnerable
16:16to sea level rise, a lot of that is in the Pacific region.
16:21And we also need to recognize that within countries,
16:24poor and marginalized populations are at greater risk,
16:29although we will all be vulnerable.
16:31So this is to say that what we've seen in the literature
16:36on climate change and health outcomes,
16:38is that impoverished individuals are more susceptible
16:44to keep related illness
16:47as a result of occupational exposure,
16:50more likely lower income individuals
16:53are going to be working outdoors
16:55than higher income individuals.
16:57And they're more likely to lose income as a result of days
17:01of not being able to work,
17:03but also working under stress conditions that are putting
17:06their bodies at higher risk of early morbidity and mortality
17:11due to worse elemental exposure.
17:15And then we also see individuals
17:16who are lower income having less access
17:19to cooling facilities,
17:21less access to personal air conditioning,
17:24and particularly in regions of the world but are low
17:30and middle income countries access to cooling facilities
17:34is not always readily available for all individuals
17:37who need it.
17:38And so this is also contributing
17:41to earlier morbidity and mortality.
17:45But at a global level we see this and within countries,
17:50individuals at the earlier and later ends
17:55of the life spectrum tend
17:56to be more vulnerable physiologically.
18:00Which is also to say that we all,
18:03as we age will be more vulnerable to the experiences
18:07of particularly heat exposures,
18:12something to consider as well.
18:15So the principle of justice is the next ethical concept
18:19that is really critical to thinking
18:21about the ethics of climate migration.
18:23So according to the principle of justice,
18:25populations that produce greenhouse gases
18:27are responsible for the consequences of our actions.
18:31This is justices at fairness and it's the same
18:34sort of justice principle that we see
18:36in our typical civil society laws where you break it
18:40and you buy it.
18:42You violate the policy of society, you use fee,
18:46you get a ticket.
18:48It's just a basic principle that we are responsible
18:51for the consequences of our own behaviors
18:54and our consumption.
18:55Climate migrants are without homes as a result
18:58of global carbon consumption.
19:01And so in a perfectly fair world,
19:02each population that is not itself displaced
19:06by climate change would be responsible
19:09for accommodating climate migrants in a ratio commensurate
19:12to that nation's responsibility for causing
19:15the climate refugee crisis.
19:17That is, nations would be held accountable
19:20for the human consequences
19:22of their greenhouse gas consumption.
19:24And the principle of fairness justifies policies
19:27in which producers of vast quantities
19:28of greenhouse gases welcome large numbers of refugees.
19:34Further the industrialized world
19:36has created climate changes displacing populations
19:40and forcing those individuals into migrant status.
19:43So the source of the problem is global and therefore,
19:47the response to this problem should equally be
19:50at a global level.
19:55We also have the ethical concept of human rights.
19:58So according to Article 25
20:00of the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights,
20:04everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate
20:06for the health and wellbeing of him or herself
20:08and of his or her family, including food, clothing,
20:12housing, and medical care.
20:15All industrialized nations have agreed
20:17to the universal declaration of human rights
20:19and should endeavor therefore to achieve these rights
20:22for all global populations.
20:24We know that human rights are aspirational and some nations
20:28have accomplished them much more effectively than others,
20:32but nevertheless, all industrialized nations
20:35have agree to these objectives.
20:37And so, this is an important international statement
20:40that nations have made that we share
20:43these basic human values
20:45and we have an obligation regardless of national origins
20:50or geographic boundaries to support the human rights
20:54of individuals on other parts of the planet.
21:00Another critical ethical concept is humanitarianism.
21:06So climate migrants were displaced on account of processes
21:10and events far beyond their own individual control.
21:14For many generations, we have had humanitarian responses
21:18and infrastructures for aiding displaced persons
21:21who lost their homes to disasters or conflicts
21:24beyond their individual control.
21:27So a humanitarian ethic motivates efforts
21:30to help those individuals in dire need for survival.
21:39I'd also like to talk about Welfare and the Harm Principle
21:43as ethical guidelines for climate migration ethics.
21:49So John Stewart Mill has been a sort of touchstone thinker
21:54in public health ethics for many generations now.
21:59And according to Mill, the Harm Principle stipulates
22:04that we are all free to behave as we like
22:08within a society until our behaviors cause harm to others.
22:14Many emphasis will point out that the Harm Principle
22:16and itself is insufficient to account
22:19for the ethical obligations that we would like to achieve
22:22in public health because we have additional values
22:26of human rights, justice, equality and fairness
22:30in humanitarianism that we've already discussed.
22:33But the Harm Principle is another ethical support
22:39for thinking about climate migration
22:41in a way that is inclusive.
22:44And so according to the Harm Principle,
22:46everyone's happiness matters.
22:48The wellbeing and lives of displaced persons
22:50should therefore be considered.
22:53The wellbeing and lives of populations
22:55that produce large quantities of greenhouse gases
22:58should also be considered.
22:59However, according to the Harm Principle,
23:02the freedom of major polluters to continue causing damage
23:05to the planet should ethically be constrained
23:07to the extent that this behavior causes harm to others.
23:12Further the wellbeing of these populations
23:14must be considered in combination with other ethical demands
23:18that we have discussed.
23:20And I think that is an important interesting aside to make
23:23that while there is sound ethical justification
23:26for large greenhouse gas consumers to have an ethical duty
23:29to welcome climate refugees.
23:31Interestingly and completely independent
23:33of this ethical justification,
23:35nations that have produced large quantities
23:37of greenhouse gases stand to benefit economically
23:40from welcoming climate refugees on account
23:42of their aging domestic populations.
23:45Which to say that,
23:46even in this highly charged political climate
23:50where public health ethics intersect
23:54with the policy discussions,
23:56we have members of society who have taken stances
24:00of isolationism and closed border.
24:04Whereas as even conservative economists have pointed out
24:08that aging high income countries would stand to benefit
24:13from expanding their populations
24:17by welcoming international migrants to contribute
24:20to the economic capacity of those countries.
24:25So the is a sort of response to the utilitarian arguments
24:30that are typically made as a sort of ethical response
24:34from those who oppose welcoming strategies,
24:38which is to say that there's been an argument that bringing
24:42in individuals to a society takes jobs
24:48from that domestic population.
24:51And so there is an obligation that the society
24:55has to protect the jobs of their domestic populations
25:01so that they can find employment.
25:03This is sort of the argument that is made,
25:06that is not accounting for any of the social duties
25:11and obligations that we have to climate refugees
25:15as a result of our greenhouse gas consumption.
25:17But is an argument that's out there
25:19and I think it's something that should be engaged with.
25:22And interestingly from even utilitarian perspective,
25:27there is actually a good benefit to aging societies
25:34such as our own to bring in a broader work base
25:39to support our economy because we actually don't have
25:42the domestic workforce to supply the demand
25:46that we have for in employment even within
25:50the existing economy that we have.
25:53So, there's a really strong argument across all perspectives
26:00from the political spectrum for having
26:04a welcoming environment for the victim
26:08of global greenhouse gas consumption.
26:20So I'd like to close by asking the question then,
26:24given all of this information in all of these principles,
26:27what is our ethical duty to climate migrants?
26:32Major carbon-producing countries, such as the US,
26:36I would pause it,
26:37have an ethical obligation to address the relocation needs
26:40of large numbers of refugees who are migrating
26:44due to the effects of climate change.
26:47This is not something
26:48that has always been politically popular,
26:51and certainly if we look at even the acceptance that we have
26:56at our southern border of turning away today
26:59around 50% of applicants,
27:02many of these migrants are moving
27:05as a result of climate change.
27:07And I think we have an ethical obligation to be more open
27:13and to be more welcoming and to also face the consequences
27:19of our own historic benefits from exploiting
27:24the natural resources of the planet and also to realize
27:30the demands that those benefits place on other members
27:34of the global community and accommodating
27:38the consequences of our actions.
27:44So, I'm happy to take questions now.
27:54<v ->So I guess maybe should we have people put questions</v>
27:59into the chat Laura or in turns?
28:03<v ->Yeah, chat or raise hand?</v>
28:07<v ->Yeah, so I could start while people are thinking</v>
28:10of their questions.
28:14Do you know if there's any discussion internationally,
28:20like in the UN or otherwise about this issue and like,
28:26particularly, I know there's been discussion in the past
28:29of formally recognizing climate refugees
28:32as a class of refugees do you know if that's going anywhere?
28:38<v ->From what I've seen, there's progress being made,</v>
28:41the agencies that I've been consulting for this project
28:46have all been advocating for that shift.
28:50And I think that there's strong argument to be made.
28:56So there seems to be movement
28:59in this direction, Dr. Krispin?
29:09<v Instructor>Thank you so much, Laura.</v>
29:11You're making a strong case for why the US has an obligation
29:15to welcome so-called climate refugees and sort of building
29:20on what Rob just said, to my knowledge,
29:23there is no legal protection.
29:24The international law does not recognize climate refugees.
29:31So and my guess is,
29:34countries that are for acting quite reluctant
29:36including the United States to welcome any kind of refugees
29:40or political refugees, et cetera,
29:42I think there's gonna be a lot of pushback
29:44'cause if they add climate refugees to the list of refugees,
29:48all of a sudden they need to welcome because they've signed
29:52the agreement convention for refugees 1951.
29:55So I'm kind of trying to figure out
29:57how we can move forward with that.
30:01But another question I have is,
30:03a lot of these climate induced migrants
30:07are actually being dislocated internally.
30:10So they're internally displaced people.
30:12So whether they're in Somalia, whether they're in Sudan,
30:17most of them I guess is are not leaving the country
30:19because they can't, but they're leaving their home,
30:24they go into an urban setting looking for jobs.
30:27So it makes it even more complicated
30:30in terms of US obligation,
30:33should US be supporting the Somalian government.
30:36the Sudanese government,
30:37to take care of internally displaced people
30:40who are displaced because of
30:41as you were mentioning climate related issues,
30:44we have a responsibility that we have caused to some extent.
30:48So the internal displaced people is something
30:50that I'm thinking about in addition
30:52to international refugees across the border
30:56into another country.
30:57<v ->Thank you. So let's start with your second question first</v>
31:00and I completely agree.
31:02I think that all of the ethical arguments put forth
31:05with regard to bringing in migrants internationally
31:11across borders still applies for internal displacement
31:14so that we have an obligation to assist
31:17with compensating societies that are paying environmentally
31:24for the consequences of our consumption.
31:28I understand that there's an uphill road for this,
31:32but nevertheless from an ethical perspective,
31:36this is an obligation that I think arguably exists.
31:42And I think that
31:43the recent Global Youth Movement regarding advocacy
31:48for their human rights has had an impact on the way
31:52that policy makers have been responding to ethical claims
31:57so that they're seeing that there's a certain level
32:02of value based accountability
32:06that policy makers should have.
32:09And there have been reactions even from the private sector
32:12in trying to reduce consumption as a sort of pay it forward
32:17to future generations.
32:18And I think having a broader voice for global populations
32:22that are internally displaced and also that are having
32:26to leave their nation altogether,
32:28whether it be lost to sea level rise
32:31or other extreme weather events that are making
32:35their home environment uninhabitable.
32:40I think that there's a place
32:43for a broader ethical discussion that if
32:45that conversation is heard,
32:48could at least make some progress in the same way that we
32:51have seen advocacy for the rights of future generations.
32:56Because I think when we all hear this information
32:59is very clear that this is something that is wrong
33:02and there's an ethical obligation to do something.
33:07And so my hope is that further discussion of this
33:14at an international level,
33:16so these populations are less ignored,
33:18can help to advance that.
33:22Going back to your first question
33:24about recognizing individuals as refugees,
33:29absolutely, I think that the current thinking in this
33:35is to try to understand that at the time
33:38that our international agreement
33:40on refugee status concerned,
33:42we didn't have an awareness of climate change
33:46as human created source of displacement,
33:52although it is just as well as conflict
33:56in the discreet scenario.
33:58And so I think that this is something that
34:01we're seeing movement in thinking and I'm hoping
34:06that this can be better acknowledged and modernized
34:11because it is a reality of migration akin to any other form
34:18of human behavior, we need to do migration.
34:23But it is more complicated of course,
34:27because it's multinational and the source of the problem
34:31is more distant from the effect,
34:32but those who are fueling the effects or fueling the effects
34:35very rapidly and very acutely.
34:39And so the humanitarian ethic of responding to migrants,
34:44responding to refugees is really the same.
34:48And that's why I also think that some of the conversations
34:52that we have focusing on the language are stalling
34:59the actions that need to be taken right now regardless
35:03of the legal protections internationally.
35:06Because we also have refugee protections for populations
35:10in international law that according to the political will
35:14of certain environments,
35:16are not necessarily being fulfilled at a policy level.
35:21And so regardless of the legal environment and framework
35:27in which we're working,
35:28the same ethical duty applies
35:32to assisting these populations.
35:34So I'm hoping that the needle can be moved
35:37at a geopolitical level,
35:39but at the same time from an ethical perspective
35:41there's work to be done regardless of that.
35:46<v Instructor>Thank you so much.</v>
35:50<v ->See lots of hands, which is great.</v>
35:51I think Dr. Lason was next.
35:59<v Instructor>Hi Laura, thank you so much for this.</v>
36:01I think you made a really good case for the responsibility
36:04of mostly wealthy countries for taking in refugees
36:11because analyzing responsibility
36:14at the national level makes sense for a problem
36:17where the answer has to be worked out
36:21across national boundaries using national border policy
36:25and treaties that nations enter into and so on.
36:29But on the other hand,
36:30there's a list of about 100 companies that are responsible
36:35for more than 3/4 of all of the greenhouse gases
36:40in the atmosphere.
36:41And the vast majority of these countries exist now
36:45and existed back till about 1988.
36:49So you can actually say these firms
36:52that are there right now,
36:53a relatively small number of them are responsible
36:57for a huge amount of the burden.
37:01And I wonder if there aren't some kinds of problems
37:04like subsidizing displaced people internally
37:08to their countries that might be better analyzed
37:11at the firm level than at the nation state level.
37:17Does that make sense?
37:18<v ->Yeah. Thank you.</v>
37:19I think that's a great point because
37:21there are so many dynamics that go on in that conversation.
37:25There's sort of the passing the buck that can happen
37:29of companies transitioning that obligation
37:34toward governments which we've seen happen
37:36in so many scenarios, thinking of the financial crisis
37:39where those who created the problem
37:43as a result of their corporate behavior are shifting
37:48the clean up of that toward governments
37:52and that's certainly not fair.
37:56But there's also I think, the question of the role
37:59of governments then in corporate accountability.
38:02And this is something that we've seen not develop
38:08on this topic at all in the way that it could potentially
38:15with regard to having
38:16some sort of tax based system according
38:21to carbon production, carbon taxes that are then used
38:28to offset the human consequences of that production.
38:33There's a real missed opportunity I think there
38:38for using that resource.
38:41And then now we're seeing higher levels
38:44of internal corporate accountability as well,
38:46which I think is important.
38:48Certainly public health students go on to work sometimes
38:53within industry as corporate accountability monitors
39:00and industries are increasingly seeing
39:03that there is some economic personal benefit to be gained
39:09from having at least a green face.
39:13But I think at this point,
39:17we need to use all of the levers available to us
39:20and I think internal forms
39:22of corporate accountability are useful.
39:25They're certainly not sufficient
39:28because of the conflicting interest that those individuals
39:30have in speaking up.
39:33You can only get so far when you're paid by someone
39:36who you're also holding accountable.
39:39But that said, that's still a mechanism
39:42and an avenue through which companies stand to look better
39:46to the public by doing something about this issue.
39:50So that as you point out there are multiple levers and ways
39:54that these objectives could be accomplished.
39:59I think the next question was in the chat
40:04for the presentation.
40:05Have you done your research on the effects
40:07of climate migration on modern slavery?
40:11That's a great, great question.
40:14Not personally, but I think that this is an area
40:18that needs more research and we're also seeing
40:23the tragic reality that today in the world,
40:27there are more human slaves living than at any time
40:30in history and conditions of scarcity and demand for labor
40:39and resources are historically a pattern
40:44that we see continuing today in which the absence
40:48of having reliable sources of income force individuals
40:53who are desperate into scenarios that are putting them
40:59into slavery even more commonly most,
41:03or a large portion of slaves today are children and families
41:08who are unable to support themselves in the ways
41:11that they historically have been or more prone
41:14to sell their children into these contexts.
41:19So thank you.
41:20I really appreciate question because,
41:22I think there's so much
41:24from an ethical perspective that is not making it
41:28into our everyday political conversations
41:32about climate change and the human rights of all individuals
41:37and particularly those who are most vulnerable
41:41to exploitation in slavery need to be discussed more
41:45as a part of this and it certainly.
41:49I think, raises more attention of the severity
41:53of the challenge and the need for something clear
41:57to be done.
42:00The next question is, I don't see your full name, Dr. Rall.
42:08<v Instructor>Hi. Yes, Laura.</v>
42:09Thank you for the very important issues that you raised.
42:13I had two questions if I may.
42:16I think you brought this up yourself,
42:17most of the migrations that we've seen historically
42:20tend to happen into neighboring countries.
42:22So either from Sudan into Northern Africa,
42:25Bangladesh to India, and the same
42:26is expected from climate change as well.
42:30And I was just thinking that,
42:32are there other important mechanisms of operationalizing
42:36this obligation for address
42:39or rather than just taking in refugees into the countries?
42:43Like I can't imagine the number of people
42:46we're talking about.
42:47India expect millions from Bangladesh and millions
42:51in Africa to be moving that taking people in
42:54is perhaps less important than addressing development needs
42:57in those countries or helping neighboring countries
42:59that are expecting refugees to be able to deal
43:02with the crisis themselves.
43:03So that's one question, second question.
43:07In the case of climate versus war,
43:09whether harm is more direct.
43:11In the case of climate, arguably EU, the US, and China
43:16would want to of kind of arrangement where they share
43:21the obligation to take in refugees and so that
43:23they would want that to happen only under the grounds
43:25of some kind of international cooperation.
43:29Do you see the discussions moving in that direction?
43:31It's an easy way to pass the buck, as you said,
43:34but it is the case that the harm is much more distributed
43:36in the case of climate and how do we deal with that?
43:40Thanks. <v ->Thanks two excellent</v>
43:42really important and challenging questions.
43:45So I think you're absolutely right with regard
43:49to the second point as we've seen
43:53in our recent international climate agreements,
43:56our global major producers of greenhouse gases
44:01have been hesitant to participate and engage
44:05unless they know that their partners are also participating.
44:09So I think that in our future international meetings,
44:14we need to have further discussion of how all the agents
44:18are going to play some role in responsibility
44:24for addressing both of the points that you raised.
44:25One, welcoming individuals, but also on the other hand,
44:30helping nations that are having internal displacement
44:33to accommodate populations that are displaced.
44:39And of course, places like Bangladesh
44:41are going to be considerably losing land area
44:46to the rising sea levels as well.
44:47So we can anticipate pretty significant movement
44:52of populations that are going to need
44:55a multinational response.
44:59But I think you're absolutely right that there needs
45:01to be a geopolitical conversation in which
45:06there's a shared sense of responsibility being taken
45:11so that we're all doing our part just as we have
45:16with any moderately successful international agreement
45:21in the past, a sort of quid pro quo
45:24is a bit of an ethical understanding as well.
45:31<v Instructor>Thank you.</v> <v ->Thanks.</v>
45:39<v Instructor>Laura, I had one more point</v>
45:41that I wanted to raise.
45:42Which I think builds maybe on something that Nara Sumat
45:46was talking about, which is prevention.
45:50because as you know, when people migrate,
45:57it's very stressful, people lose their homes
46:00and their way of life.
46:01So even with the support of being taken in
46:04by another country or internally, that's insufficient
46:12in many ways.
46:14That it would be much better for people if they didn't have
46:16to migrate in the first place.
46:19So, I think that would involve support
46:25by the high emitting countries
46:29to the lower emitting countries whereas you pointed out
46:34the migration is mainly taking place
46:38for stronger climate change adaptation measures
46:41that would help keep people where they live
46:46and protecting them from effects of climate change.
46:53<v ->I completely agree.</v>
46:54I think there's such a broad literature
46:57on the mental health sequela of disaster response
47:02and particularly in scenarios where there's not
47:06as strong infrastructure for rebuilding
47:10and or accommodating right in scenarios
47:15where it's possible to accommodate.
47:18There are all sorts of cultural benefits
47:22of allowing individuals to remain intact social units.
47:28There's a huge mental and social disruption that occurs
47:33when families are separated and communities are split up
47:39and social networks are disrupted.
47:43We saw as a sort of parallel history here
47:46in the United States with a history
47:48of Native American populations being moved to reservations
47:52and then in the 1950s and 1960s,
47:55those reservations being incrementally reduced
47:59and those populations urbanized at the expense
48:03of social networks that were health sustaining
48:06and health promoting.
48:07And we've seen significant literature now linking
48:12that history to ongoing health problems.
48:18So that's just one scenario I think of a case where
48:22there's an argument to be made for supporting communities
48:27to thrive wherever possible,
48:31whenever possible as an approach as well.
48:34And then at the same time, adapting and being realistic
48:39about the movement needs of populations
48:44that are not going to be able to sustain themselves
48:49in each shifting environments.
48:55And the question is,
48:58what do you see as the role of contributions
49:00that academic community can make about climate refugees?
49:04So I think this is a great question to end on because
49:10there's been some discussion on is here
49:13at our own institution
49:16about accommodating displaced academics.
49:20And I think that there's a real responsibility,
49:26particularly for those of us who have the privilege
49:28of having these conversations and taking the time
49:32to research and think about the implications of the shifts
49:40that we're seeing at an international level,
49:45is a sort of virtue ethics.
49:48We talk about ethics at the political sphere
49:51and then we talk about ethics at an individual level.
49:55The classic or sense of virtue ethics,
49:58what are my individual character traits that I'm going
50:01to cultivate to live an ethically responsible life
50:06and living as members of an institution such as this that
50:11could really stand to benefit from
50:15and does benefit already from a very diverse
50:19and inclusive international faculty base.
50:23There's so much that we can learn from individuals who need
50:29a new place to be.
50:31And so I think that that's a great point that an institution
50:37has an ethical obligation to think about how
50:42we can be a part of a solution to the problem
50:46that we are also a part of a system that creates.
50:52We can't of course solve all of these problems
50:56as an institution, but we're not neutral.
50:58We don't exist in a vacuum,
51:02we're not separate from all of this discussion.
51:06We are a major employer and so we do have an opportunity
51:12to provide employment and interactions and engagement
51:19and collaborative opportunities with individuals
51:24who can really help to enrich our learning
51:29and also have some sort of compensation for the problems
51:37that societies such as the state community have created.
51:45<v Instructor>Well, thanks Laura</v>
51:46for an excellent presentation
51:50and for bringing up all of these important issues
51:53that we'll have to keep working on.
51:55<v ->Thank you, it's such a pleasure.</v>
51:58<v Instructor>Bye everyone.</v> <v ->Bye.</v>